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August 3, 1994 - Part 1
(10:40:52) If someone could hand this to the Secretary? [Pause.] 20 This redacted schedule suggests that on Thursday, February 3, at 11:50, Roger Altman and Jean Hanson met with you. Do you have any recollection, or does that freshen your memory as to what might have happened at that occasion? Secretary BENTSEN. No, it does not, Senator. I have shown you something of my meetings, my schedules, and it does not. Senator BOND. Thank you. I can understand that meetings that long ago may not come quickly back to mind, even when you had a busy schedule. But speaking of the Inspector General and the OGE report, there is something that concerned me. Last night, we learned that Mr. Altman read and used the transcript of the IG's interview in preparation for his testimony, and also that Mr. Cutler had been presented copies, more than a week or so ago, of these IG reports. Do you know why these transcripts were released to the witnesses before they were called to testify before this Committee? Secretary BENTSEN. Yes, I certainly do. In the sworn depositions that were sent to Mr. Cutler, he had asked for those to help him in his preparation before the Congress in his testimony. He had a very short time span in which to accomplish that, And I thought that he deserved that to be able to do a good job of it, and that the Congress deserved that kind of information. So it is also, let me state, someone here said that these things are a bit like a trial hearing. I am no trial lawyer so I am no authority in that regard. But it is my understanding that once you have these sworn depositions, that they can then be exchanged and others can look at it, with the idea of giving the more complete facts as to what happened. It is not something that is kept in secret, it is not something that is sprung a surprise, a gotcha; it is more informational. And that is what we were trying to do. Now let me say, further, that I asked the IG about the propriety of it to be sure of that regard. And it was also my understanding that he thought he had completed his questioning of witnesses, and that after he had done this, that then the Office of Government Ethics then asked for one more witness to be deposed, and that was done. And that was the Comptroller of the Currency, Gene Ludwig. And that that did not impinge on the other witnesses' depositions. Senator BOND. Mr. Chairman, my time is up. I thank the Secretary. I was under the impression that the IG interviews were to be kept confidential until they were all released at once. Even though this is not a trial, we all know that if memories are shaky, or if in the instance where there is perhaps something that needs to be dealt with, having access to somebody else's testimony before you give your testimony may enable you to tailor the facts. So that is a little troubling to me.
August 3, 1994 - Part 2
(11:00:02)(tape #10077 begins) (11:03:12)(tape #10076 ends) (11:11:42) Hearing resumes: The CHAIRMAN. The Committee will resume. I want to say for the record that Senator Sasser was in the middle of his time period-well he has just returned. Let me just give Senator Sasser a minute to get seated and get his materials ready. If the timing clerk would restore the remainder of Senator Sasser's time after he has caught his breath here, we will go ahead and finish with Senator Sasser and then we will rotate over to the Republican side. Senator Sasser. Senator SASSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I am fascinated by the statement that you made to George Stephanopoulos arguing in favor of "lancing this boil." Some of the things you learn just by living, and I think sometimes if you are a smart person and have an open mind you will acquire wisdom over the years. This may have been a very wise suggestion that you made to George Stephanopoulos. I think it was. But my question comes: How would you lance this boil? I was talking to a very prominent constituent of mine last evening who unfortunately for him is a C-SPAN junkie. He watches everything we do on television here, and he was making the point. He says, this reminds me of "The Dance of the Seven Veils." After the last-the veils are taken off one after another, and finally to our chagrin we find when the last veil falls there is nothing there. Now my question to you is: How do you lance this boil here that has been pestering this White House, and has been in and out of the news now for 2 years? The CHAIRMAN. The Committee will resume. I want to say for the record that Senator Sasser was in the middle of his time period-well he has just returned. Let me just give Senator Sasser a minute to get seated and get his materials ready. If the timing clerk would restore the remainder of Senator Sasser's time after he has caught his breath here, we will go ahead and finish with Senator Sasser and then we will rotate over to the Republican side. Senator Sasser. Senator SASSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I am fascinated by the statement that you made to George Stephanopoulos arguing in favor of "lancing this boil." Some of the things you learn just by living, and I think sometimes if you are a smart person and have an open mind you will acquire wisdom over the years. This may have been a very wise suggestion that you made to George Stephanopoulos. I think it was. But my question comes: How would you lance this boil? I was talking to a very prominent constituent of mine last evening who unfortunately for him is a C-SPAN junkie. He watches everything we do on television here, and he was making the point. He says, this reminds me of "The Dance of the Seven Veils." After the last-the veils are taken off one after another, and finally to our chagrin we find when the last veil falls there is nothing there. Now my question to you is: How do you lance this boil here that has been pestering this White House, and has been in and out of the news now for 2 years?
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Kohala pastures - Coast & cattle
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Pololu Valley & Coast ****
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Pololu from high Cinder Cone thru trees Home in "jungle"
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August 3, 1994 - Part 1
(10:45:35) Secretary BENTSEN. Well then let me get into that further with you, Senator. The other thing was, first I think Mr. Cutler is a man of integrity, an excellent lawyer. He served at least a Republican and a 21 Democratic President with distinction. I think he is an expert on the question of ethics, But I also said to him, I want to be sure that this is not shared with the witnesses, that this is for your office and your staff. And he assured me that is the way it would be handled. Senator BOND. But, Mr. Chairman, if I just may follow up. These were shared with Mr. Altman. Secretary BENTSEN. That is right, after the completion of the report, afterward. Senator BOND. Well, there is a question of whether it was before they were made public and before he testified. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sasser. Senator SARBANES. Well would the Senator yield to me? Senator SASSER, Pleased to yield to Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. I think it is important to clarify this. As I understand, from what the Secretary has said, the depositions taken at the Treasury were made available to Mr. Cutler, who is doing a report, with the understanding that they would be held by him and his staff, and that other witnesses would not see those depositions. That is what you have testified to? Secretary BENTSEN. That is correct. Up to that point. Now after the IG had completed his report and after this Committee had completed its depositions, then they were subject to being shared. Senator SARBANES. That is right, and that is the next stage after the IG completed his report, then they were made more generally available. Is that correct? Secretary BENTSEN. That is correct. Senator DAMATO. Mr, Chairman, if I might make a point. I have to tell you, I understand sending the depositions over to Mr. Cutler. I think that is a closed question. But I think reasonable people could say, well you know he is conducting an investigation of his own, et cetera, so should he not have that information? But I have to tell you, for him to release that information so that Mr. Ickes' deposition falls into the possession or into the hands of Mr. Altman before he is examined here, I think is inexcusable, and certainly a lapse of good judgment, And that does not reflect on you, Mr. Secretary. I just think that falls into the area of making it possible to tailor testimony. We are asking Mr.-and we only found out about this because we are asking Mr. Altman questions, and the next thing you know he says, oh, that is not what Mr. Ickes said. How do you know that? Oh, I read his deposition. He's got his deposition there. Secretary BENTSEN. Well let me say, the sharing of the depositions was only done insofar as witnesses after all depositions were taken, including that from this Committee. Now the depositions for this Committee, because you requested it, as I understand, you have those, and I do not think those have been shared. 22 The CHAIRMAN. And they are held in a confidential status as between the witnesses until we actually use the material here in the Committee. Secretary BENTSEN. That is my understanding. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Oh, Senator Sasser. Excuse me. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR SASSER Senator SASSER. Well thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I want to welcome you this morning before the Committee. I know you are delighted to be here this morning. [Laughter.] To be talking about this particular subject. But as you are probably aware, the General Counsel of the Treasury Department, Jean Hanson, wrote a note saying that you had heard about the substance of the meetings that took place in the Autumn of 1993 dealing with the information regarding the criminal referrals. Was she in error in that note? Secretary BENTSEN. I certainly think she was. Senator SASSER. Now in a handwritten answer that the same Ms. Hanson wrote to prepare you for your testimony before the House Appropriations Committee, Ms. Hanson apparently suggested that you would say, and I quote: "I now believe that Ms. Hanson and Mr. Altman consulted with me * * *" that is, consulted with you, " * * in advance of the White House meeting of February 2nd, 1994, that was the subject of Mr. Altman's February 24 testimony." Now did Ms. Hanson's suggestion accurately reflect your true belief that they did consult with you? Secretary BENTSEN. Certainly not. I do not agree with that. I do not remember it that way at all. Senator SASSER. Have you had communications about this whole Madison Senator BOXER. Mr, Chairman, could I ask Senator Sasser to repeat his question? I think it is important that the Chairman hear that. Could you possibly repeat the question to the Treasury Secretary because I think that is a very important, crucial point.
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Mormon Tabernacle on King Street
August 3, 1994 - Part 1
(10:50:46) Senator SASSER. Well I will be pleased to repeat it, Senator Boxer, The question that I propounded to Secretary Bentsen was, Ms. Hanson gave him a handwritten note to prepare for his testimony before the House Appropriations Committee, and Ms. Hanson apparently suggested to Secretary Bentsen that he should say, and I quote: "I now believe that Ms. Hanson and Mr. Altman consulted with me in advance of the White House meeting of February 2nd, 1994, that was the subject of Mr. Altman's February 24 testimony." And I asked the Secretary did Ms. Hanson's suggestion accurately reflect the Secretary's true belief. Secretary BENTSEN. That certainly does not reflect my memory of the situation. It does not. As I have said, they met with me on or about February 1 when Mr, Altman told me he was thinking of 23 recusing himself and they discussed the statute of limitations. However, to the extent that the answer you read suggests that they consulted with me about going to the White House, it is incorrect. Senator SASSER. Now let me ask you Secretary BENTSEN. And at one point, I recall telling her that we had a difference of opinion concerning that issue. Senator SASSER. Now let me ask you, have you had any communications with the President or First Lady about this whole Madison or Whitewater matter? Secretary BENTSEN. No, I have not. I know I was on a plane with the President flying some place and that was after all this was in the papers. And I recall how strange it seemed not to be able to discuss it, and neither of us brought any of this up to discuss with the other. Senator SASSER. Right. So it was on your mind, but you knew Secretary BENTSEN. It sure was. Senator SASSER [continuing]. You knew it would be improper to discuss it with the President? Secretary BENTSEN. That is correct. all? Senator SASSER, And the President did not bring it up to you at Secretary BENTSEN. That is correct. Senator SASSER. Nor has the First Lady? Secretary BENTSEN, That is correct. Senator SASSER, All right. Now Mr. Secretary, according to an entry in Mr. Altman's diary, dated January 4, 1994, he says that you, and I quote: "went over to see George * * " That is George Stephanopoulos "* * * on Whitewater yesterday to argue for lancing the boll." He says "to argue for lancing the boil." Did such a meeting take place? Secretary BENTSEN. Yes, such a meeting took place. Senator SASSER. Tell us what happened in that meeting? Secretary BENTSEN. Well I called George Stephanopoulos and that was at the time when charges were being made that there was stonewalling taking place by the White House, that there was not disclosure. And I went over to talk to him and tell him that whatever the facts were, get it out there. Make a total disclosure. That I had been through one of these deals where I formed a breakfast club one time where I was going to get contributors together for my campaign and have breakfast with them from time to time. Frankly, I tried to take some of the ideas out of the Democratic leadership, the club, and out of I think the Republican's Eagles Club. But I no sooner did it than I decided I had made a mistake. And so I immediately disbanded it, and held a press conference and said that I did not think I made many mistakes, but I did on this one and I thought it was a real doozy. And that was the end of it. Senator SASSER. How did George Stephanopoulos respond to that? secretary BENTSEN. As I recall, he shared that as something that should be done. 24 Senator SASSER. Mr. Chairman, I know my time's not expired, but The CHAIRMAN. Why don't we reserve the remainder of Senator Sasser's time. We have got to recess. We have got a vote underway. Let's reserve your time, Senator Sasser, and you can take it either right when we come back, or at some other convenient point. Senator SASSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. The Committee stands in recess for about 10 minutes. (10:54:52) [Recess.] (10:54:54) Commentary of hearing hosts NINA TOTENBERG and DON BODE, they also talk to SARAH FRITZ of the Los Angeles Times (11:03:12)(tape #10076 ends)