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Galapagos Islands 2 - Lava Gull
(Tape One) Lava gull on bow of ship, CU of preening feathers,
August 2, 1994 - Part 1
(10:55:11) The CHAIRMAN. Senator Shelby, I don't want to be arbitrary in cutting you off, but we're holding everybody to the time limit. This is important and we'll come back to it. Senator SHELBY. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mack. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR CONNIE MACK Senator MACK Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Steiner, I want to just continue on with a question or two. This goes back to the recusal discussion earlier. I think you were asked, a few minutes ago, why you recommended that Mr. Altman recuse himself. Mr. STEINER. That's correct. Senator MACK. I think what you said was something like the political pressure is going build. It would be better to do it now to as opposed to later. Is that close? Mr. STEINER. That's correct, Senator, Senator MACK. Were there any other reasons, in your mind, as to why he should recuse himself? Mr. STEINER. Senator, I thought that in the absence of a recusal, it would open him to possible political accusations and I wanted to prevent those accusations from occurring. Senator MACK. What kind of political accusations? Mr. STEINER. The kind that we have seen recently, that he is somehow interfering or trying to protect people through his role as interim CEO of the-RTC. Senator MACK. So it was only the appearance that concerned you, is that correct? Mr. STEINER. Senator, Mr. Altman had made it very clear on numerous occasions, both to the Treasury staff and the RTC staff, that he wanted this case handled in identical fashion to all other cases. What that meant was that at no point did he anticipate making a decision about this case or being involved in the investigation. And in the event that a decision was brought to him, he planned to follow the advice of the General Counsel. Senator MACK. Again, your concerns were not things about confidentiality, about propriety, about conflicts of interest, it was the perception, from a political point of view, as to how it would be received? Mr. STEINER. That's correct, Senator. As I said, Mr. Altman made it very clear that he wanted this case handled in an identical fashion. Senator MACK. I appreciate that. I just wanted to get a clear statement of what your thinking was. Mr. DeVore, I too wanted to welcome you back to the Senate, to this Committee. Calling our attention to the meeting you attended at the White House with Ms. Jean Hanson on October 14, 1993, it is my understanding that this was supposed to be a meeting to discuss press leaks, that is, stories that were likely to appear in the next few days on Madison. Is that correct? Mr. DEVORE. Senator, that wasn't my understanding. My understanding was that when I received the call from the reporter, and 345 I sent word out that the reporter had called me and what he told me, that it was a meeting convened primarily to listen to my account of what the reporter had to say. I was not aware of any stories that were imminent. Senator MACK. Did you set up the meeting? Mr. DEVORE. Not in my recollection, I did not. Senator MACK. Do you have any idea who did? Mr. DEVORE. I do not. Senator MACK. This was a meeting then, to discuss a press inquiry? Mr. DEVORE. Let me not speak to the purpose of the meeting; let me speak only to why I thought I was going to the meeting. I thought I was going to the meeting to tell the White House something I didn't know the knew, and that is that this reporter for a major newspaper had a lot of information on an investigation being conducted by the RTC. Senator MACK. So you were surprised then at what you beard at the meeting? Mr. DEVORE. There were one or two surprises, yes, sir. Senator MACK. What were those surprises? Mr. DEVORE. Well, one of the things I learned is that a couple of other reporters bad been talking to the White House about this matter. I had not been aware of that. Senator MACK. But you thought you were going there to give them information? Mr. DEVORE. Yes, sir. Senator MACK. Do you remember who was at the meeting? Mr. DEVORE. Yes, sir. From the Treasury, it was Jean Hanson, Josh Steiner, and me. From the White House, it was Bernard Nussbaum, Bruce Lindsay, , Mark Geron, and there were some other people whose names I didn't know who were in and out of the meeting. Senator MACK. The point was that most of those people, as I understand it, were attorneys doesn't say anything about what the meeting was all about? Mr. DEVORE. I don't understand your question. Senator MACK. I was under the impression, frankly, that this was a meeting that was called for the purposes of discussing press inquiries. I bad just assumed that it was going to be a meeting of press types and was surprised when I saw the list of people who were there. It seemed like it was a group of attorneys.
August 2, 1994 - Part 2
(10:55:00)(tape #10066 begins) a "tortured" day to describe the day? That was a tough day, was it not? 344 Mr. STEINER. It was a tough day, Senator, that's correct. (10:55:11) The CHAIRMAN. Senator Shelby, I don't want to be arbitrary in cutting you off, but we're holding everybody to the time limit. This is important and we'll come back to it. Senator SHELBY. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mack. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR CONNIE MACK Senator MACK Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Steiner, I want to just continue on with a question or two. This goes back to the recusal discussion earlier. I think you were asked, a few minutes ago, why you recommended that Mr. Altman recuse himself. Mr. STEINER. That's correct. Senator MACK. I think what you said was something like the political pressure is going build. It would be better to do it now to as opposed to later. Is that close? Mr. STEINER. That's correct, Senator, Senator MACK. Were there any other reasons, in your mind, as to why he should recuse himself? Mr. STEINER. Senator, I thought that in the absence of a recusal, it would open him to possible political accusations and I wanted to prevent those accusations from occurring. Senator MACK. What kind of political accusations? Mr. STEINER. The kind that we have seen recently, that he is somehow interfering or trying to protect people through his role as interim CEO of the-RTC. Senator MACK. So it was only the appearance that concerned you, is that correct? Mr. STEINER. Senator, Mr. Altman had made it very clear on numerous occasions, both to the Treasury staff and the RTC staff, that he wanted this case handled in identical fashion to all other cases. What that meant was that at no point did he anticipate making a decision about this case or being involved in the investigation. And in the event that a decision was brought to him, he planned to follow the advice of the General Counsel. Senator MACK. Again, your concerns were not things about confidentiality, about propriety, about conflicts of interest, it was the perception, from a political point of view, as to how it would be received? Mr. STEINER. That's correct, Senator. As I said, Mr. Altman made it very clear that he wanted this case handled in an identical fashion. Senator MACK. I appreciate that. I just wanted to get a clear statement of what your thinking was. Mr. DeVore, I too wanted to welcome you back to the Senate, to this Committee. Calling our attention to the meeting you attended at the White House with Ms. Jean Hanson on October 14, 1993, it is my understanding that this was supposed to be a meeting to discuss press leaks, that is, stories that were likely to appear in the next few days on Madison. Is that correct? Mr. DEVORE. Senator, that wasn't my understanding. My understanding was that when I received the call from the reporter, and 345 I sent word out that the reporter had called me and what he told me, that it was a meeting convened primarily to listen to my account of what the reporter had to say. I was not aware of any stories that were imminent. Senator MACK. Did you set up the meeting? Mr. DEVORE. Not in my recollection, I did not. Senator MACK. Do you have any idea who did? Mr. DEVORE. I do not. Senator MACK. This was a meeting then, to discuss a press inquiry? Mr. DEVORE. Let me not speak to the purpose of the meeting; let me speak only to why I thought I was going to the meeting. I thought I was going to the meeting to tell the White House something I didn't know the knew, and that is that this reporter for a major newspaper had a lot of information on an investigation being conducted by the RTC. Senator MACK. So you were surprised then at what you beard at the meeting? Mr. DEVORE. There were one or two surprises, yes, sir. Senator MACK. What were those surprises? Mr. DEVORE. Well, one of the things I learned is that a couple of other reporters bad been talking to the White House about this matter. I had not been aware of that. Senator MACK. But you thought you were going there to give them information? Mr. DEVORE. Yes, sir. Senator MACK. Do you remember who was at the meeting? Mr. DEVORE. Yes, sir. From the Treasury, it was Jean Hanson, Josh Steiner, and me. From the White House, it was Bernard Nussbaum, Bruce Lindsay, , Mark Geron, and there were some other people whose names I didn't know who were in and out of the meeting. Senator MACK. The point was that most of those people, as I understand it, were attorneys doesn't say anything about what the meeting was all about? Mr. DEVORE. I don't understand your question. Senator MACK. I was under the impression, frankly, that this was a meeting that was called for the purposes of discussing press inquiries. I bad just assumed that it was going to be a meeting of press types and was surprised when I saw the list of people who were there. It seemed like it was a group of attorneys.
Yellow-Bellied Marmots
01:00:03 Two yellow-bellied marmots fat for hiberation 01:00:29 Marmots feeding 01:00:41 Marmots on rock 01:00:52 Marmots feeding 01:01:34 Marmots sitting up right and eating 01:01:48 Marmots dashing in hole 01:01:55 Marmots feeding 01:02:17 Marmots going into den in rocks and then coming out PART TWO 01:02:42 Marmots, fat ready for hiberation 01:03:15 Marmots sitting errect 01:03:24 Marmot's right hind foot
13 Lined Ground Squirrel
(TAPE 1) 02:24:58 13-lined ground squirrel gathering seeds, pouch is full 13-lined gr. Squirrel cache seeds 13-lined gr. Squirrel standing erect 13-lined gr. Squirrel with pouches full 02:38:55 Gray squirrel in a knot hole
Muskrat
(TAPE 1) 02:40:22 Muskrat swimming with food to a den 02:40:49 Muskrat mother and young
Cottontail rabbits
(TAPE 1) Cottontail rabbits play and feed around metal garbage can.
Woodchuck
(TAPE 1) Baby woodchuck just out of its burrow
Cottontail Rabbits
(TAPE 1) 02:47:34 2 cottontail rabbits eating 02:51:10 1 cottontail rabbit grooming
Beaver Lodge
(TAPE 1) Abandoned beaver lodge with no mud on it
Woodchuck
(TAPE 1) Woodchuck burrows cleaned out in the spring
Eastern Chipmunk
(TAPE 1) Eastern chipmunk in it's burrow, chirping and eating seeds
Muskrat
(TAPE 1) Muskrat house in the marsh
Goose
(TAPE 1) Goose on muskrat house has nest.
Muskrat House
(TAPE 1) Muskrat house
Eastern Chipmunk
(TAPE 1) Eastern chipmunk in a knot hole with pouches full
Muskrat
(TAPE 1) 2 muskrats on log eating, early morning, see reflection, they are grooming
Eastern Chipmunk
(TAPE 1) Eastern chipmunk searching for food Eastern chipmunk standing erect E. C. On a rock, close E. C. Looking for food E. C. On a log, close
Gray Squirrel
(TAPE 1) Time code jumps Gray squirrel buries a nut
Cottontail Rabbit
(TAPE 1) Adult cottontail rabbit stands erect to eat seed heads Half grown cottontail rabbit stands erect to eat seed heads
Eastern Chipmunk
(TAPE 1, continued on tape 2) Eastern chipmunk gathering bedding and taking it to the den
August 2, 1994 - Part 2
(11:00:28) Mr. DEVORE. Well, I was there, of course, and I deal in press matters. Mark Geron was there. He was the Communications Director for the White House. I was somewhat surprised to see Bruce Lindsay, but I learned that, in fact, Mr. Lindsay handled press inquiries that involved matters that had occurred in Arkansas. It's not unusual, if you're going to have a press meeting, to have others sit in for several reasons. Nonpress people can sometimes offer good advice to press people. Senator MACK. Were you surprised that the RTC press person was not there? Mr. DEVORE. No. Senator MACK. Why not? 346 Mr. DEVORE. My recollection, from my perspective, is that the primary information the reporter who had talked to me was interested in, involved endorsements on the checks that had been contributed to this fundraiser back in the mid-1980's. I didn't know the RTC would know anything about that, whereas the White House might. Senator MACK. Why did you not think that the RTC would have knowledge about those checks? (11:01:50)(Tape #10065 ends) Mr. DEVORE. Well, since the funds had been contributed to Governor Clinton and most candidates are careful to keep records of who made the contributions, I just assumed they would be more likely to have it. Senator MACK. Who were the checks from that were in question? Mr. DEVoRE. I don't know. Senator MACK. Was McDougal one of them? Mr. DEVORE. I don't know. Senator MACK. You formerly testified that the earliest you ever remember even receiving a press inquiry was October 11, 1993. Is that correct? Mr. DEVORE. That's correct, with one qualification. The earliest I recall receiving a press inquiry which let me know that the RTC was actively continuing to investigate the Madison Guaranty situation, that came as a surprise to me. Senator MACK. When was that, did you say? Mr. DEVORE. October 11th. Senator MACK. Ms. Hanson testified yesterday that Mr. Altman called you both down to his own office for a meeting on October 11 or 12, 1993. Do you recall that meeting? Mr. DEVORE. I do not. Senator MACK. She testified that during that meeting, that Mr. Altman was engaged in a discussion about how to respond to the press inquiry from Mr. Gurth. Does that refresh your recollection? Mr. DEVORE . No, sir, it does not. I don't recall that meeting Senator MACK. You don't recall that meeting at all? Mr. DEVORE. Not at all. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Mack. Senator Kerry. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR JOHN F. ]KERRY Senator KERRY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome. Mr. Steiner, I know this is the last place in the world that you ever imagined yourself being under the circumstances. I know it's hi ghly uncomfortable. I know of you, as others do, as a person of enormous ability extremely talented, moral, idealistic, and I think that all of that lea out of your diary. As a matter of fact, I think your character, which I don't question, I think you show the evidence of your ch aracter in your own diary in a number of different places. Your judgment is good, you see things coming. You perceive the dangers, you showed the acumen that, think, was present in your being appointed to the position that you're in. And, indeed, you had the good common sense' when George Stephanopoulos was angry and firing off steam, as anybody would have been angry, inciden- 347 tally, I think being honest about the circumstances, and your reaction was you persuaded George that doing anything would have been stupid and improper in terms of Stephens, and be cooled down. But that was good judgment. In addition, you drew lessons. You said the lesson of all of this is do what you think is the right thing early; recuse. You said remember everything might eventually be asked about under oath. Don't let the White House get involved in any way. These are good instincts.
August 2, 1994 - Part 2
(11:20:14) Senator FAIRCLOTH. But they wanted to replace Kulka with Fiske? Mr. FOREMAN. Senator, I don't know that. I remember Ms. Hanson making a comment about looking at the scope of Mr. Fiske's responsibilities from the Justice Department, and someone making a comment that it included civil claims. That's all I remember about that. I have no idea what the White House wanted. The CHAIRMAN. Let me just say, the time has expired. If you've got one follow-up, we're about to go and vote; then we're going to recess. If you can ask it quickly, we'll do it, and then recess. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did you talk with Robert Fiske before he made a decision not to prosecute anybody in this matter? 352 Mr. FOREMAN. No, sir. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. The Committee is going to recess briefly. We've got three votes in a row. The last two votes have shortened time periods. Once the voting has finished on the Senate floor, well come back and we'll stay here until approximately 1:15 P.m. That will give everybody guidance as to the length of this recess. Well be back here, I would think, within about 30 minutes. Senator DOMENICI. Mr. Chairman, do you not have a Democratic Caucus at lunch today? The CHAIRMAN. I announced earlier, Senator Domenici, we're going to take a formal recess for the two caucuses from 1:15 p.m. to 2:15 p.m. The Committee stands in recess for the voting period. (11:21:45) [Recess.] (11:21:47) Hearing coverage hosts DON BODE and NINA TOTENBERG discuss day's hearing, and talk to AMY BARRET of Business Week, Senator ORRIN HATCH and Minority Counsel MICHAEL CHERTOFF (?)
Water Bird - Arctic Tern
Tape 2 00:31:48 Arctic tern hovers, dives and catches a fish